I don't think it is being overly melodramatic to say that tonight's NBA draft is the most consequential one for the Wolves in over a decade. It is very deep, and Minnesota is staring at the distinct possibility of losing their superstar and two first-round picks over the next three years.
But let's think happy thoughts. As Kevin McHale himself notes, the Wolves are very likely to choose a player who will provide immediate help next season. I'd like to hear your take on who you are crossing your fingers for and who you are dreading gets landed when Commissioner Stern makes the announcement this evening.
Based on various folks I've talked to and some limited viewing, here's my thumbnail take. Oden and Durant are gone, of course, and unless Atlanta comes back into the picture with the #3 pick, so are Horford and Conley. There are a clump of players from #5-10 that include Yi, Jeff Green, Corey Brewer, Brandan Wright, Noah, and Spencer Hawes, with some folks like Al Thornton and Julian Wright also considered as a reach. Here's my order:
Green--The most NBA-ready. A legit large 3 who Fred Hoiberg thinks is versatile and smart, coming out of a quality, defensive-oriented college program.
Brewer--A lock-down defender who probably doesn't need the ball, but isn't afraid to take the big shot if necessary. For those and other reasons, is a good fit with a Foye-McCants backcourt if the Wolves decide to go small and athletic.
Yi--I worry about rumors that he'll be unhappy in a city without a significant Asian population, reportedly trying to discourage both Minnesota and Milwaukee from drafting him. But from the tape I've seen has size and skills that are rarely combined.
Noah--How ironic that he'd be the perfect complement to KG; someone who emphasizes defense and quickness in the paint and is a heady ballplayer who knows how to win.
Thornton--Rugged and NBA-ready.
The pick I dread is Hawes. It certainly isn't his fault, but when was the last time that a large white guy taken in the first 10 picks fulfilled the hype? How many examples can you name that didn't? (From Koncak and Kleine in the 80s to Darko in the aughts with Big Country
Reeves in between, I can name about a dozen without straining.)
And for all your really smart NCAA types, it wouldn't hurt to hear who might be available and helpful at 41.
Thanks.
Can we start a summer league thread? Here's a (biased and repeatedly math-challenged) recap from the first game:
http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/news/smith_dominates_opening_win_070710....
Other possible topics:
- who from the summer league team has a chance to make the team's roster (among the players not already on the roster)?
- how excited should we get about these games, recalling that Foye averaged 25 ppg last summer?
Stephen,
I agree with you 100% about the type of point guard Parker is. He was, who I was refering to as experienced and well deveoped.
Remember back to the NBA finals when it was the Spurs and New Jersy. Parker didn't play that well and it brought on the talk of signing Kidd to the Spurs. But he matured in a well run organization from top to bottom. They are sound finacially and professionally. Worlds different than the Wolves. And Tony Parker has 3 rings and been to the finals 4 times.
The thing about the comparisons I was getting at is that I am worried certain expectations will be laid upon his shoulders. He was the 7th overall pick, and you do expect him to be able to come in the league and add something. But the current state of the Wolves team is a mess. It's so outrageously pathetic that I can't see any youngster thriving.
I mean I think we have to put our hopes in Foye as to what the team can accomplish with him. Not really at the point, but... can he play on this type of team, in this organization, with these players and be successful? And I was tying to say that no, no he can't. I don't think Williams could be either nor any point for that matter. We had a rotating door at the point last year. Didn't we start just about every point we had at some point last season? Remeber the T-Hud experiment? LOL! Benching of James, benching of Foye, Benching of T-Hud... Nothing worked.
Those numbers, that we hope he can achieve, are numbers. They don't equate into play. 4th quarter Foye right? Remember we were actually going to the rookie at the end of the game..until Wittman took over. And there were more than a few instances where I think if Foye had gotten the ball at the end or been playing at the end we prolly would have won the game. That is Wittman might have done actually the same as Casey in regards to win loss record. But Wittman was so clueless. He tried to form his own identity while coaching and it failed. It failed miserably. I vividly remember Wittman then gonig to a minutes distribution identical to Casey's. How pathetic is that? Does anyone else remember being sold the "we are trying to make the playoffs" line? We were even record with Golden State around this time. Big games that meant going or not to the playoffs...we folded. We weren't trying to tank those games..we just flat out lost. Got out coached out played. Then the deferred excuse "tank the season at least" came to.
Tanking with the vets...are you serious? Think hard and serious about this. Has this ever happened in the NBA before? It's gross. And the Wolves for the last 2 years have added fuel to the fire when talking about restructuring the draft as to prevent tanking so blatently.
Lastly I heard rumors of Artest coming here. And I heard people saying what about the crazy Artest..he could potentially break a team apart with his antics.
Break apart a team? hahah good, we don't really have one here. I don't things could be worse- in fact I would welcome some Artest drama as opposed to what we had the last couple of years. We are already in shambles...Artest would just make it more bearable. And besides, we could ditch Ricky!
I think that in fact, KG, Artest and Howard would prolly be a good ground with a a few scrappy youngsters... heck we just might make the playoffs and cause some noise.
But I'm not holding my breath for that trade to happen...though I would welcome it with open arms!
I also do not want to turn Foye into Williams. Just compared him to Williams as I believe Utah's young leader to be the best young point, so I compared Foye to the best (in roughly the same age bracket).
I see nothing wrong with the stats that came out for Foye. If those stats did hold up, the Wolves would have a handful more wins.
This year's playoffs taught us that you need strong point play to have team success in the NBA, but look at the Spurs...Tony Parker is definitely a shoot-first point guard--who averaged 5.5 assists in the regular season and 5.8 in the playoffs--and "led" his team to the title.
Andy B.,
Sorry I don't agree with you on the Vets quitting at any specific time or game.
Blount is a contract player. He quit the second he signed his big deal with the Celts. And he starts the year his contract is up. His poor attitude toward professionalism in the NBA is what's his problem.
In addition, he is a pathetic excuse for a big man in the NBA. Jason Kidd may be spectacular..but he is a point guard who averaged 8.2 rebounds per game. Blount averaged 6.2. In fact, almost every starting guard in the NBA averaged close to what Blount did in rebounds or more.
Mark Blount (waste of space) is just another version of Olowokandi. He doesn't care about the game of basketball. He is there to get a pay check, shoot some hoop with the homies and live a "baller" life. He's a shooter. Not a banger. And he doesn't do enough of the big man things to warrent him that tag. Why even have him when a guard can do EXACTLY what he can? Heck I think McCants dunked more than Blount last year. ANd Blounts defense? Oh lord..send this guy some tomatos because he obviously is afraid of getting bruised. Instead, he gets abused on help defense and penetrating guards ALL DAY L-O-N-G...
Ricky Davis..yeap I agree Andy..another cancer. Get rid of him. But he too I think didn't quit at any specific time or game. In fact, I think this is vintage Ricky. Play when he wants, screw the game screw the team...
Andy B., I'm just saying, that Detroit game, was a microcosum of the last few years. I'll say it..the Wolves have a bunch of losers on their team.
We need Christian Lattner to come into the locker room and give one of his famous loser speeches. But this time..he actually would be within his right to call them such...
Britt, yes you are right. Some of my venom towards Wittman has to do with McHale operating with impunity. It is outright disgusting. He has not put together a good team for 3 years now. And I do beleive he is the at the crux of what is going wrong with this franchise.
And Patrick, buy or sell it...word is word and just that.
KG has wanted out for a while now I am guessing. Don't be surprised to see an opt out (though highly unlikely unless he is planning on retiring soon as to take a pay cut with a team playoff bent) or a forced trade...
McCants is quoted in the Pioneer Press today saying that KG does not want to leave.
The Vets quit on Casey before they quit on Wittman. The game against Detroit was the beginning of the end. Wittman wasn't able to get the players (Blount, Davis, James) to start playing hard again because they don't respect the game and it doesn't matter what coach they have, imo.
We can't judge Wittman's ability to coach the KG led Wolves until all of the cancerous elements are removed from the roster. Davis has to be the next priority and I am sure Wittman is lobbying hard for McHale to make that trade before training camp starts. Blount might be rehabilitated without Davis, Reed and Blount on the roster, but I would trade him as well for his second-half collapse believing that addition by subtraction outweighs anything we might get in return for him.
Jessie,
I don't know about Stephen, but I sure wasn't trying to make Foye into Williams. I was only suggesting that William's provides a metric to measure Foye's development against during his second year, because Williams also struggled his rookie season running the point at Utah. There are differences in Foye and Wiliams for sure, but also similarities. Both are comfortable with the ball in their hands during crunch time and played college ball on successfull guard-heavy teams. They both shoot well and are big guards who can overpower smaller opponents.
Their differences are also striking as well and each will run the offense in different ways. None of this means that Foye will either be a clone of Williams or run the point less efficiently. Foye just has the potential to develop into an effective point guard in the NBA relying on different strengths than some other point guards. He's smart and hard-working - and, if Wittman can prove to be a good coach with a roster of coachable players vs. quitters and losers, then he'll be just fine playing point guard for the Wolves.
Still a lot of ifs in there.
Denny Green,
In all honesty, I beleive you're right in that Wittman should be given a year to prove if he can do something with this team. At the same time, I am not even willing to give Wittman the credit that he figured out that the vets gave him a better shot at losing games. And no doubt, the order to tank the season came from McHale.
I disagree though that a draft pick is worth sacrificing developement and playoffs. Did you watch the NBA finals? Experience, and sound developement kicked Clevland's ass in 4 games.
And Brewer..he hasn't played a game yet for us. Yeah perhaps he blossoms into a stellar defender. But I don't think the Wolves ended the season knowing that if they tank they would certaily get Brewer. Because our pick was not lottery protected, it was possible towards the end of the season that we could have been left with no draft pick and no playoffs and also sacrificed developement and experience witht he kids.
Don't get me wrong though, I had my problems with Casey too. But why can't the Wolves go after a tenured coach with a winning record? *sigh*
And why haven't they been signing guys for summer yet?
Who are they going to get in as a free agent? you just know a 5 year 31 million contract is burning a hole in McHales pants...
What's more surprising than anything...that we didn't throw in a 1st rounder with the Howard trade...
...and for the record, i have been out of town for a few years and only following the wolves from a distance. i can only imagine that if i were a season ticket holder and was paying money to watch a bunch of guys tank the second half of a season two years in a row while being fed a bunch of pr bs that i would be plenty steamed.
that being said, i have been a fan of the team since '89 and remember very clearly when pooh richardson was our biggest star. i think that if you can take a couple steps back it is pretty interesting to try and figure out how they are going to rebuild out of the current situation.
not saying that wittman is a good coach. not saying that casey was a bad coach. not saying that mchale is a good gm. what i am saying is that based on circumstance, i choose to hold off on my opinion of his coaching ability until i see the team this year.
do i wish larry brown was our coach? of course. wittman probably wouldn't be in my top ten but given the here and now i wish the guy luck and hope he can develop into another sam mitchell. the wolves need all the positive vibes they can get...
doesn't being a timberwolves fan mean you are an experienced suspender of reality? for the last three years, that is what you have had to do to give a break to this organization, its owner or its personnel guy for the ridiculous public posturing versus its on-court product. that's what you've had to do for yourself for wasting time thinking about it.
that said, i love wittman's hollow bobby knight impression. it's telling the fans what they 'need' to hear. (that he's tough and demanding.) the disconnect between his words and his distribution of playing time was mulled plenty accurate on this blog, so please recall the "tanking with vets" strategy whenever stats are broken down. randy and rashad haven't played 30-35 minutes a game yet.
if mchale and wittman think alike, is it ok to assume that randy won't be asked to be a prototypical point guard? doesn't mchale always harken back to the days when basketball players were just players and didn't have to be more than a big or a little? i hope motion and ball movement return to the offense and kg's quarterbacking can be more of a focus without being a crutch.
isn't foye's scoring more valuable for this team than his playmaking?
wade and williams comparisons make sense with bigger guards, but what's so wrong with having a couple guys in the backcourt who could each give you 20, 5 and 5?
ok, wouldn't 16, 4 and 4 be enough? because just being a consistent presence should be.
Think this guy might be a good fit for the Wolves?
"Ermal Kuqo, 6-10, Center, Efes Pilsen (Turkey), 1980
Jonathan Givony
A team looking for a banger in the mold of Fabricio Oberto to bring in for cheap might decide to look in the direction of Albanian/Turkish big man Ermal Kuqo (pronounced koo-cho). Kuqo is also known as Ermal Kurtoglu since having received a Turkish passport. While not considering a particularly quick or athletic player, he’s a tough guy who likes to push players around and has shown to be effective at the highest levels of European basketball, including the Turkish National team.
Kuqo played Junior College basketball in the States (at Fort Scott CC and Seminole JC) but never became eligible to play D-1 from the NCAA’s standpoint due to his professional background. Since his American adventure he’s played in Croatia, Slovenia and in Turkey with Efes Pilsen for the last four years. He considers himself an Albanian through and through, though, and is often looked at as an ambassador of sorts for a culture that has had to deal with hardships over the years.
In terms of his skill level, Kuqo can find some production with his back to the basket (despite his fairly basic footwork) or facing the basket, thanks to a nice jump-shot with range that extends to the 3-point line. He’s usually never the most talented player on the floor, but he often is the most physical and hardest working, setting good screens, knocking guys around, and presenting himself as a threat on the pick and roll. He boxes out well thanks to his strength and frame, but often comes up a bit flat-footed for rebounds.
If this doesn’t sound like the most attractive prospect in the world"he probably isn’t"but considering his size, strength, experience, toughness and ability to knock down a jumper, teams could probably do worse than to consider him in the 1-1.5 million dollar range."
http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=2161
I can't comment on how much truth there is to this commentary, or how this guy might translate in the NBA. I also get a little leery whenever the "next flavor-du-juor" gets used, as it tends to be stretched (eg, Oberto).
That said, if this guy's even close to what this says he is, he sounds like a fantastic fit, right? For the minimum salary, a big guy with a mean streak who can come in and mix things up but still has enough polish on offense to keep people honest?
Like I said, I've never seen this guy, so I'm only going off of this report. I'm not lobbying for him specifically, or for point guard Aaron Miles--who I mentioned before--specifically. I'm not a scout, obviously.
I just think there are bargains out there if the Wolves are willing and able to look for them. I think if this team's going to turn around in time to make KG a winner again, they need their young guys to play and develop, they need a slick trade or three, and they need to find more creative avenues to fill out their roster than overpaying the MLE types or bringing in washed-up guys for the LLE.
Wittman is a willing victim of circumstance. He came proclaiming loudly that he was not here to take Casey's job. Then, despite a .500 record that exceeded the expectations of just about every national NBA pundit who had predicted a bottom-third standing for the Wolves, McHale fired Casey for a lack of consistency and installed Wittman.
Wittman went 12-30 to Casey's 20-20. I think the anti-Wittman antagonism stems from Casey being the fall guy for McHale, who has kept his job now through two coaches, and has openly said that he and Wittman think alike. But the veterans McHale brought in quit on Wittman, who, despite a lot of tough talk, continued to play them. Pardon the fans if they viewed this bullshit as either tanking or stupidity.
Which is a much more verbose way of saying that "give the guy a break, his team was tanking last year," is by itself a weak defense, but made even weaker when the reason you had to tank was the personnel guy who seems to be your staunchest ally.
re; wittman's performance and the state of the team last year. i think that it is a little unfair to judge him on the second half alone. by no means am i a fan but the amount of bashing the guy gets is pretty high around town and he hasn't even coached a full season.
let's just take into account that he was most likely tanking purposefully with a wink and a nudge from mchale in order to maintain our draft pick and possibly showcase some of the guys we wanted to move.
in all honesty, what would a .500 record, an early exit from the playoffs, and no draft pick have done for us? some would argue player development and team morale but from a nuts an bolts perspective, not a whole lot.
the wolves have been trying to rebuild on the fly around garnett and his huge salary without hitting rock bottom and blowing up the team. unfortunately the only way for them to do that at this point is with high draft picks. thus you have seen teams that should have (and did) play .500 ball, inexplicably fall apart in the second half of that past two seasons. the result: randy foye and corey brewer. think we could have afforded that kind of talent and potential with the mid-level exception? not likely.
i'd just say that wittman deserves one full season with these kids before the bashing begins....
Call me a cynic but...
To ALL of you people likening Randy Foye to D. Williams is kinda ..well.. sketchy.
First, Foye played a combo guard in college. And it prolly is the most condusive position even now, as far as making him NBA ready.
It was the year he got drafted, and the year D. Wade won the ring. And the D. Wade comparisons were flying like kites.
We shouldn't be trying to make Randy Foye into the flavor of the week.
Don't just jump on the latest sucess story and hope he turns into something similar.
We want Randy to develope his game here, and have other people hope their player turns into a Randy Foye.
The problem I think we ahave to keep in mind is our terrible coach. Randy Wittman is so clueless on developing talent. He can't even manage minutes right. And for some reason we're scratching our heads about how Foye could and hopefully will develope into? You're joking right?
Think hard back to last season. What did you see? I saw a coach who was actually tanking with the vets. Denying progress to rookies who worked their asses off more than the vets... and they were rewarded with more bench time.
Now think of our team now. Still a god damn mess. Still have a billion guards/forwards. No big banger yet. And no relief in sight.
My point is, how is it even fair to start judging someone in this kind of mess. In all honesty, none of us have ANY true idea as to what Foye could be in the NBA. Let's say on a differnt team, a well run team.
Everything being what it is, I think Utah's system, and coaching provided a very good habitat for developing Deron Williams into an NBA point guard. I credit Sloan's demanding of hard work, his trust in players, Utah's low post presence and half court sets with having to do with a lot of Deron William's success.
If you were to plug say...Randy Foye into Utah, what do you think think the outcome would be?
Now, what about puting Deron Williams on the T-Wolves last season... what do you think the outcome would have been?
Worlds apart.
I guess I'm kinda saying to get to down on Foye att he same time don't raise your hopes for anyone on this team of lost causes.
Also, I guess I'm saying... Foye looked good out there as a 2 /roaming guard. If he'd make a better 2 in the league, why would you want him as a sub par point?
I can see it now, he's gonna finish his rookie contract and go else where and blow up.. at the 2 /roaming/ combo guard.
Now, I'll admit...the flaw in the logic of comparing Foye and Williams is that Foye is new to the position, while Williams has played it for years.
But, I still find it interesting.
As far as Foye, I think Derron Williams is a good metric for measuring Foye's development as a point guard. I hope he follows a similar career trajectory as Williams in his second year. In a comparison of their rookie year.
WIlliams
28.9 mpg, 10.8 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 4.5 apg, 42%fg, 41%3pt and 70% ft
Foye
22.9 mpg, 10.1 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 2.8 apg, 43% fg, 85%ft, 37%3pt and 86% ft.
I think Foye needs a mentor type player to coach him on the nuances of running the point. He has the mentality to be a very good, if not great player in the NBA and I hope he can develop into the point guard position. He needs to be better defensively as well.
I think it is very possible he averages 30-35 mpg, 14-18 ppg, 3-5 rpg, and 5-8 apg during his second year while shooting similar percentages as his rookie season. If he can be better on defense, the Wolves are going to be a much better team next year with this kind of production out of Foye.
Thinking strictly in terms of Foye's long-run development as a basketball player, it will do him nothing but good to run the point this season. He seems like a very hard-working player that wants to learn the game of basketball.
Even if we end up moving him off the ball in 2008/2009, playing 30 minutes at the point this season (and hopefully another 7-8 minutes off the ball) will make him a better basketball player.
now, will it help the wolves be a better team? most likely not this year, unless he makes a tremendous jump in his play-making ability.
Stephen's comparison is instructive. If you look at Foye's numbers each month they are very similar to Deron William's numbers from his rookie season. Williams's play this past season is evidence that someone can look shaky at the point and then blossom their sophmore year. Granted Williams has a better coach and better teammates than Foye has, but we can hope can't we?
Stephen, don't take this the wrong way, but I honestly believe extrapolating average stats per minute is one of the worst comparisons there is. I mean, let's not get carried away here. The only thing worse than this is when people do per 48 minute stats and compare players that way. Soooo stupid.
Are you telling me that if Reggie Evans (7 rpg, 17 mpg) played 40 mpg like KG, that he would have averaged 16 rebounds per game??? That's an extreme example I know, but you can't just multiple the ratio and assume that any given player will continue or better that production. There is usually a reason players don't play more minutes. For some big men it's because they can't stay out of foul trouble or don't play defense. Some guards can't play defense or have too many turnovers etc.
In Foye's case it's because he's not a great shooter and wasn't particularily adept at running the offense. Everything stagnates when he has the ball. It's not all his fault as our team was garbage, but I just don't think he's cut out to be the primary ball handler. I hope he improves this summer, I really do. I don't sit here and rip on Foye just for something to do, it's because I honestly care and it makes me sick to see the Wolves suck so bad the past few years. Sometimes I honestly feel that the lot of us could run the team better than our current management. Sad.
Hey all,
I'm having discussions on other boards, so I thought I would post this here as well for your takes on it.
---
Here's a completely unscientific statistical breakdown for you.
In my opinion, the best young point guard in the NBA is Deron Williams, so I'll compare Foye to Williams for this argument.
Deron Williams 36.9 mpg in 2006-07
16.2 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 9.3 apg / 45% fg, 76% ft, 32% 3-pt.
Foye per 36.9 mpg
16.2 ppg, 4.3 rpg, 4.5 apg / 43% fg, 85% ft, 36% 3-pt
Comparable stats to…
Kirk Hinrich
Jason Terry
Chauncey Billups
Monta Ellis
Maurice Williams
Chris Paul
Stephon Marbury
Andre Miller
Leandro Barbosa
Better stats then…
Devin Harris
Steve Blake
Rafer Alston
MIKE JAMES
Jamal Tinsley
Chucky Atkins
Jason Williams
Earl Boykins
Jarrett Jack
Mike Bibby
Delonte West
...and, those are going off his stats from his rookie year. Let's assume he gets progressively better this year and he is just fine as a point. A good chunk of the players whose stats are comparable to Foye's do indeed have more assists per game then our guy, but not by much.
Just thought it was interesting how that turned out.
Thanks for clearing up the roster space issue, but if Richard cracks the rotation, I stilll suspect Glen Taylor's reached the point where he might balk at the idea of putting, say, Troy Hudson's $6 millionish salary on the inactive list. I could be wrong, but that's my hunch. Given some of Taylor's recent statements, he seems to think the team's thrown too much money at their problems and wants to cut back. So regardless whether or not forking over a few million bucks to bring in a Fischer or Brevin Knight might make big-picture sense, we can't be sure Taylor would feel the same way.
Given that, if the trade avenues don't take the team where they want to go, I suppose they could always try to find a diamond in the rough somewhere (although McHale seems to have lost his fastball in his evaluation skills). I was just reading an interesting feature on some overseas free agents on DraftExpress.com, most of whom are American and would be willing to sign for the minimum. There's a couple of PGs in the article who went undrafted in 2005 and have been developing nicely in Europe: Former Jayhawk Aaron Miles (undrafted because though he was the consummate heady PG, he didn't project to score much) and former Maryland Terrapin John Gilchrist (reportedly undrafted due to experimenting with something called "marajuana"). Something like this wouldn't provide Foye with a mentor, but it might take PG minutes away from Hudson and Jaric.
It will be interesting to see. Management seems interested in moving Foye off the ball more. While Foye isn't my ideal idea of a PG I'd like, I do think they're getting close to decision time on McCants, and an objective for this season should be to see what they have with him. So I'd prefer he gets substantial minutes, meaning Foye at the 1 might make sense. I just hope they don't trade Davis for Jamaal Tinsley or something.
Um, it may be worth reminding folks that the NBA changed how things work with team rosters a couple years ago when they did away with the much-abused "injured list" in favor of an "inactive list."
Teams have to carry at least 13 players and can carry up to 15 players, of which 12 are to be active for any given game. So with 13 players now, the Wolves could add up to two more before roster space is an issue.
That said, I appreciate the additional information on Daniels. He sounds like a worthy target if the Wiz could be persuaded to take RD off our hands.
Might be interesting to see if the Wiz would consider taking T-Hud as well if we took Etan Thomas off their books. I think I'd like him better than Brendan Haywood, despite the larger contract. Haywood seems like a constant complainer from what I've seen whereas Thomas might be more content to play the defense and rebounding role the Wolves have been missing. Besides, Etan Thomas has been featured on Common Dreams, which is totally cool! :-)
RD+T-Hud for Daniels+Thomas did pass muster with the online trade checkers.
Jianfu,
I like your Daniels proposal, but I wouldn't count out Knight simply because of roster space. Richard could easily start the season in the developmental league and McHale could also easily put a non-contributer on the IL, either legitimately or not, to make space for Richard and Knight.
Iv'e always liked Antonio Daniels. he's getting a bit old, he'll be 33 next season. he seems like a good guy who plays hard.
I'd be interested in swapping Ricky for him, but I'd also want a draft pick.
here's espn's john Hollinger on Daniels:
Daniels is a rarity: A guard who likes to drive but doesn't turn the ball over. Despite all those hands hacking at the ball, he had the eighth-best turnover ratio among shooting guards, and in other seasons he's been even better. Daniels handles the ball well enough to play the point but prefers the shooting guard spot since his instincts are as a scorer. But he's no ball hog, putting up solid assist ratios the past few seasons. Despite his free-throw prowess, he's a poor long-range shooter, hitting 22.8 percent on 3-pointers last season and 31.5 percent for his career.
Daniels is a very poor rebounder for a shooting guard, ranking 56th out of 58 players in rebound rate, which is surprising since he's a good athlete. Though he's a bit small for the position at 6-foot-4 and 210 pounds, he's a solid defender. However, he defends better at the point because bigger guards can hurt him on the blocks.
Daniels had an assist rate of 33.8 last year, according to basketball-reference.com, which is very solid. (Steve Nash, for instance, has a career assist rate of 34.7.) Daniels' career assist rate of 28.7 is certainly solid.
More importantly, Daniels takes care of the ball, with a career turnover rate under 10 (9.2, 8.0 last year).
I think his weakness is more on defense; he's just not a great defender. Not as big a problem facing off against second units, but still not ideal. But who is?
Brevin Knight would be nice (career 38.8 assist rate, 12.0 turnover rate, since I've gone down this road), but the Wolves have 12 contracts on the books next year, and assuming Richards makes the team, they have no roster space left, correct? I think they need to solve things via trade.
Is Daniels that good of a PG to consider as a mentor for Foye? When I've seen Daniels, he was more of a shoot-first PG and I don't think that's what the Wolves would look for in a mentor, so that's why I'd probably lean more towards a Brevin Knight for that role since my impression of him is more of a pass-first and defense PG, which is also what I'd want in a backup.
So far, the best ideas I've heard are to move RD for someone like Foyle. I really liked the RD/T-Hud for Foyle/O'Bryant idea. I have no clue if GS would actually do something like that, but boy, I'd sure go for it on our end.
los,
Great post.
On a different board, I stated I'd love to see the Wolves try something non-reactionary for once and try something like get Antonio Daniels and a future first round draft pick for Davis.
The beauty is I think Washington would consider it, as despite their high-octane attack of talented backcourt players, they don't really have a 2 guard, assumming draft pick Nick Young doesn't immediately make an impact (and there's not much reason to think he will). Flipping their backup PG who's signed for three more years at $5 million per and a future, likely non-lottery pick might make sense for them.
For the Wolves, it gets them a near perfect mentor at PG (albeit with a slightly bloated deal) who is used to coming off the bench and maybe maximizes RD's value with the potential the pick would hold. It'd be a completly anti-McHale move: it has a sum-greater-than-the-parts feel, and there's the novel concept of adding a pick. The alternative to an RD deal would probably to take back an equally problematic "starter," and I don't know if that would be wise.
> One thing is for sure, they NEED to address the big man issue.
Garnett, Blount, Howard, Smith, Richard, Madsen...
Looks a LOT better than last year's big man lineup of:
Garnett, Blount, Smith, Madsen
I agree that another banger of legitimate size would be great, and I'm all for Foyle or O'Bryant or Darko or anybody. But I'm not sure that this is the biggest issue the Wolves are facing anymore. At this point, I'd put solving the Ricky issue at #1, and solving the backup point guard issue at #2.
IMO, Ricky must go for the youth movement to succeed. We need Shaddy playing the major minutes at the 2, which isn't in line with Ricky's goals. As for backup point guards, if we don't get a better solution to that than T-Hud, we're in serious trouble for 15-20 minutes of every game. We've seen that Marko is better suited at the 3.
What I wouldn't give for Anthony Carter back. A veteran point guard, positive locker room presence, used to playing backup minutes, with a small contract.
I agree Darko may be a bit pricy for the Wolves. But, I still don't think that means you don't try. The guy is young, can rebound well and could develope into at least an Oberto or Varejo type. I'm just saying the Wolves should try.
As far as the 6'6" guard ...meh sounds interesting. And yeah if we could get low 1st round or high 2nd round for Ricky I would do it regardless of who you have to take his place.
I mean, in theory, Jaric or Hassell could take the 3 spot. And, Matt Barnes is a free agent as well. Or start using the kids more.
One thing is for sure, they NEED to address the big man issue.
Darko will be too expensive because he can get more than the mid-level exception. I read that Fisher wants to go to NY. I think the Knicks would be smart to add him because he has demonstrated the ability to get the ball inside to low-post scorers (Shaq, Boozer). Brevin Knight would be a great addition to the Wolves. He is comfortable as a backup, is an intense defender, and is probably one of the better passers in the game. The Wolves biggest problem the past two years is identity and chemistry. A vet pg like Knight would help correct that. Maybe Mateen Cleaves (added to summer roster) could do the same thing for a lot less $. Did anyone notice the Wolves also signed Quinton Hosley to the summer league (http://www.nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/quintonhosley.html)? He is described as a mix of Shawn Marion and Matt Barnes who perfers to drive to the hoop and draw contact than shoot jumpers (though he has a good mid-range game). He is a long 6-6 and rebounds well. Sounds like a good replacement for Ricky who I would like to see traded for a draft pick.
Call me crazy, but I think Nate's Blount-for-Foyle swap would make sense. The Warriors are reportedly at the point where they're considering buying Foyle's contract out, anyway, so maybe this is a potential avenue to continue the addition-by-subtraction effort started by the James trade. Foyle isn't the moderately effective offensive player McHale prefers at center, but who cares? The most successful campaign in franchise history featured Ervin Johnson at center. Plus, the only way this franchise will move forward is if Foye, McCants, Brewer take more of the reins on offense; exchanging Blount and his jumpers from the key for someone who won't mind setting picks would help that process.
If you could expand the deal to include the in-the-Nellie-doughouse Patrick O'Bryant for one of the Wolves glut of overpaid swingmen, even better. Hassell or Jaric work on trade checker. This would completely renovate the Wolves' center position--giving them a blue-collar rebounder who won't sulk and a young guy with some upside--as well as balance the roster. That wouldn't be bad day of work.
Darko is out there...
The Wolves would be stupid not to at least be interested. If Darko is on the Wolves he will average more rebounds than Blount. And yeah I wouldn't mind seeing Pryz next to KG either. But that bit of bad blood..didn't it result from a locker room fight between the two? lol But who knows... grab em both..shelf Blount.
Pryz would be a huge addition! The little bit of bad blood between him and Ticket could be a spark on the court that we haven't seen in awhile. Inside presence - shot blocking - please can we, please!!!
Hassel for Pryz, Davis for Maggette or Artest, Fisher or Brevin Knight with the midlevel and the Woofies could be much better next year. My guess is that Fisher ends up back in LA, though. For some reason, I feel like Davis won't get traded, at least until the deadline. I bet the Hassel for Pryz trade does go down though, and even though he aint that great and has bad knees, it would be a huge help to have him as an alternative to the jump shooter.
pretty classy of the jazz to release fisher. 6 or 7 teams on his short list. this would be a terry porter-like presence. huge.
fingers crossed.
hassell for pryz? anyone? numbers work?
Darko and Fish, hmmm.
The Fisher pickup would be a no-brainer. Is he free and clear as far as signing?
I can't say that I know too much about Darko, he was buried on the Pistons bench, and I don't catch too many Orlando games. What does he bring? Can he gives us minutes at Center?
Just read that Derek Fisher is leaving the Jazz so he can be in a city that provides the best combination of medical specialists to take care of his daughter's eye cancer. I don't know if the Mayo Clinic or the other fine medical facilities in the Twin Cities qualify, but Fisher is an ideal MLE guy for the Wolves; a mentor for Foye, a good locker room presence, decent outside shooting, and probably willing to accept any role thrust upon him, no matter how large or small.
So Rashad Lewis is going to Orlando, but if they sign him without a sign and trade, they apparently have to give up the rights to Darko. Am I the only one who thinks the Wolves should go after him?
I have a point guard idea: Kyle Lowry. I'm a fan of his, but his career has been slow out of the gate due to injury, and now he's been pushed aside by his team's recent draft pick.
Sounds a little bit like McCants, right?
Hassell/McCants for Brian Cardinal/Lowry? Memphis gets a potential instant offense sixth man in McCants--and perhaps someone who could make Mike Miller expendable as the team rebuilds-- as well as the better rounded overpaid role player in the deal. But the Wolves pick up a potentially solid, starting-calibur PG (Lowry was an underhyped but highly promising prospect coming out of Villanova last year), and Cardinal--who Memphis has been trying to move forever--would give the Wolves three's off the bench, something they sorely lack.
Charley Rosen (aka Phil Jackson's lap dog) posted an article on Fox Sports today where he tries to make the case that Garnett would flounder in Phoenix's uptempo offense and flourish in LA's triangle. He goes on to say that Odom and Bynum would be great pickups for MN.
Check it out if you need a good laugh.
Interesting thoughts Nate.
I've gotta say, I don't like the Davis for Battie trade- at all. We can do much better for Ricky than a bad big guy with a long contract. People! Those expiring contracts are like gold come mid season!
But you are right, GS would love to dump Foyle. And while he is pretty crappy, he is a big guy who can bang a little. That may be worth pursuing. I'd prefer to dump perimeter players (Huddy, Marko) in exchange.
What is the speculation with Chicago? Is Noah, Nocioni, Ben Gordon for KG, and make them take Blount or T Hud, realistic?
I think I'd do that. How hyped would Noah be to join Brewer and Richard? That fun would that be?
If KG is here for this season I'll live with it. Tom Powers aside.
Artest would be Ricky Davis plus Mark Madsen. The only reason for Sacramento to do this would be to save salary, and I'm sure that the Kings can get a better offer for him. The other problem is that he seems redundant now that we have Brewer. Why pay a guy seven million a year for three years when you just drafted a guy who is (in theory) going to do the same over the next three years for three million a year? I would rather use the one attractive contract to try to get either a defensive minded center (I don't hate Blount too much, as he does have an offensive game. If we can find a center that can play D, we can switch them in and out as needed). Looking at the lists of players, the only defensive centers that jump out at me that haven't been mentioned are Dikembe Mutumbo (41 year old free agent), Jake Tsakalidis (28 year old free agent, had one good season, is supposedly too slow to deal with penetrators), and Jason Collins (slowly declining 28 year old with 2 years left at about 6 million per. Supposed to be a good defender, and a mediocre shot-blocker who would easily be the second best on the team).
i'm surprised no one is mentioning ron artest. remember spree and sammy had issues coming into minny and clicked with kg instantly, at least for one glorious season.
i would trade ricky and whomever else would fit in a heartbeat for artest. remember how much we wanted him when he was leaving indiana? provided we keep garnett, i believe artest would fall in line and is an absolute monster on d. he, garnett, and now brewer would form a scary good defensive presence.
this was a rumor floating around pre-draft on si.com. how would an artest trade work on the espn trade machine?
I like your ideas nate, and we can believe anything after James was traded... but we do need a point guard. We actually are lacking the two positions most difficult to fill, center and PG, and only one marketable contract in pretty Ricky.
But if we want to get hopeful, we should remember back to the trades that brought MV3. I remember all the rumors that got me excited were nothing compared to the players that actually came. It was a year of bliss.
Trade ideas:
A. So you want to get rid of Mark Blount
Don Nelson might actually like Mark, he's a big guy who can run down the floor and hit jump shots. Don Nelson has no use for Adonal Foyle. We could trade them straight up. Foyle is pretty useless but can rebound. He is actually supposed to be a great guy, hard worker, and thus a good lockerroom presence. They are both signed for four more years (with Foyle actually making a little more) and the trade works in the ESPN trade machine.
If you want to keep KG, Foyle is another big body who can rebound (but not do much else, like Blount shoots but doesn't do much else).
B. Ricky Davis
1. You could trade Ricky Davis and Troy Hudson to golden state for Foyle and O'Bryant. The trade works under the cap. Again, Foyle can rebound and is a good locker room presence. O'Bryant is a somewhat promising center. Don Nelson hates O'Bryant and would gladly trade him. The Warriors get out of Foyle contract but must take on Hudson's. But, Hudson makes about $3 million less per season than Foyle so Golden states saves some money. Ricky can leave after one year but might fit into Nelson's system OK. Hudson would fit fine.
2. Ricky Davis to Orland for Tony Battie. Orlando wants to make a run at Rashard Lewis and resign Darko. They need cap space and luxury tax relief to do this. They are likely losing Grant Hill as well. Ricky Davis plays the game like Grant Hill would play it if he were really, really stoned. Orlando might be willing to put up with that for a season to get the cap relief.
Battie is a solid veteran who can rebound and play inside. He's got 4 years left on his contract. The trade works in trade machine. Again, if you are keeping KG you can trade RD for a solid veteran who can play inside and be a veteran presence in the locker room.
This are trades I think are feasible for the wolves. I am not in love with them but after looking for salary matches and thinking about what *other* teams might be willing to do, I don't think would be horrible trades.
we should only do them, however, if we are keeping KG. If we are not keeping KG it makes no sense to get these washed up veteran bigs. But if we do keep KG and want to compete against Oden will need some guys who can rebound and push people around.
I suspect you're right. I admit I reach a lot when it comes to the How-do-we-get-rid-of-Blount issue. Sadly, the Wolves are likely stuck with him for the forseeable future.
I like your Hilton Armstrong suggestion, but I just don't think the Wolves can get him.
I wish they would just play Garnett at "center."
Jianfu,
I'm skeptical that Washington would trade away a strong interior defender for a guy like Blount. They got beaten up on the interior last year, and trading for Blount might be the onl thing they could do to make it worse. The problem is that we don't really have the right contracts to get it done.
1) Hilton Armstrong from New Orleans would be an interesting choice. He has better per minute numbers than Blount in every defensive category (just triple Armstrong's numbers to get a rough estimate) and might be able to get 10 points a night. However, it would require the Wolves convincing New Orleans to give up a young player (he might be slightly redundant by the emergence of Tyson Chandler, but still), and the only thing we could offer would be Mark Madsen by himself. He was an undrafted signing, so maybe Madsen and a #2?
2) Mikki Moore had solid season in New Jersey, but he could very well be the Mike James of this year. Does anyone want to re-sign Mike James?
3) Jeff Foster from Indiana would be nice to pick up, but it would require them to eat one of our bad contracts by itself. The same applies to Dan Gadzuric of Milwaukee.
4) Steven Hunter of Philadelphia is someone the Wolves should be looking at, but we don't have the contracts to get him alone (we'd have to give up either Foye or Madsen and Smith). We could trade Mark Madsen and any of our overpaid swingmen (Marko Jaric, Trenton Hassell, or Troy Hudson) for Steven Hunter and PG Kevin Ollie (interesting note: Kevin Ollie has a worse PER than Troy Hudson), who is an expiring contract.
Patrick,
Here's an idea I'd try. Offer Mark Blount and Mark Madsen to the Wizards for Brendon Haywood and Antonio Daniels. The Wizards (and their fans) appear to be even more tired with Haywood than the Wolves are with Blount, so maybe a mutual pot stirring by both franchises at the center position would be welcomed, and in return the Wolves pick up a solid, underrated mentor for Foye (who can be brought in when the passes start hitting the fourth row) and Washington gets another big body (look at their roster; they have NOBODY up front). Couldn't hurt to try. All four contracts in this imaginary transaction extend 3 more years, so it'd be a rare NBA trade where the teams are simply trying to find better alchemy on the court, without concern for cap space or maneuverability.
I like the Brewer pick. I don't expect him to be quite as good as some, I think. But I believe he'll be a nice addition. I love his versatility, team-play, pedigree, and make-up. I still would have preferred Noah, especially if Garnett's staying, but Brewer will do fine. Presumably this means the Wolves will try to turn up the tempo this year? (Speaking of Noah, I used a poor choice of words in my Anti-Hawes post, stating that historically college big men picked outside the top 5 don't become "impact" players; change it to "elite," or "franchise-calibur." Plenty of big guys picked lower can make an impact. Dalembert, for instance, is an impact player who came out of college drafted in the late first round.)
The rich (or fortunate) get richer, though, with both Portland and Seattle aggressively jockeying for inside position on what looks to be an interesting divisional rivalry over the next several seasons. If anything, though, the Blazers serve as an example of a moribund team gone hopeful very quickly. It can be done.
I think the Wolves made the right choice with Brewer. As bad as it sucks that we added to our glut of perimeter players, he seemed to be the best talent available at the slot.
I am a little surprised how quickly the board has turned its thoughts to trading players other than KG.
How are Jaric, Hudson, and Davis all of a sudden tradeable assets? Did they suddenly become good or redo their contracts over night?
I still contend that the best use of Ricky Davis' expiring contract will be a mid season trade. This is fantasy time for every team...a time when all teams talk about improvements and making the playoffs next season.
Given that prvailing attitude, what GM in their right mind is going to offer up anything decent for an entire season of Ricky Davis' jerk off attitude and do-nothing game?
We are stuck with Jaric and Hudson for the length of their contracts unless we package them with any combo of KG, McCants, Foye, or Brewer.
Hassell has trade value and a modest contract. We could probably trade him for a young player still on his rookie contract who isn't working out. But it is going to need to be a team with legit playoff aspirations. Anyone have any ideas....and please make it a big guy or a PG.
Yes Paul, I love lockdown perimeter defenders and believe every successful team needs one. The issue is that the Wolves already have one in Hassell. I'm not against acquiring a second one in Brewer - just not in the first round. Brewer *may* develop into a player like Tayshaun Prince, but it won't happen immediately. Meanwhile, we can now measure KG's tenureship as a Timberwolf in terms of days because McHale doesn't seem to grasp the need for quality big men playing next to KG.
College Wolf's vignette re McCants anger is instructive not only wrt McCants immaturity, but also about how the players don't seem to be on the same page as the "management". An article in the Strib today again mentions how McHale tends to discount "chemistry". We read reports a few weeks ago that Bracey Wright wants out - who could blame him? After his stint in the NBDL, he looked ready to me, but the Wolves have too much invested in McCants and Foye, not to mention Davis, for him to get a real chance here. Disharmony seems to be the effective word for the Wolves, perhaps courtesy of one Mr. McHale.